by Veronica Benton
I am often asked, “When will I trust my husband again?” This is such a hard question to answer, especially for a woman who just found out her husband has been hiding a pornography addiction.
Trying to find herself in the shock of the moment and not seeing a light at then end of the tunnel is such a scary place.
I knew my husband was having an “affair with our computer” for a long time: the first year and a half of our marriage, to be exact. The problem was that I thought it was my fault. I thought I was not fulfilling my husband, so he would have to turn to the Internet. It was so hard to muster up the courage to call him out, but I knew I had to do something. I had fallen into an eating disorder, partly to have control of something in my life and because I felt that if I could look like the girls online, he would pick me over them. On top of that, we were leading worship at our church, wearing perfect masks, telling no one of our struggles. I had exhausted my efforts and had enough. He snuck into bed around 4am one night and I said, “I know what you’re doing.”
Let the recovery begin.
Thankfully, T wanted to change and was truly sorry. I am heartbroken on the road when I talk to women who tell me their husband says, “The only problem with me looking at porn is your jealousy problem.” Ouch.
One of the biggest factors in rebuilding trust in our marriage is accountability. We signed up with accountability software and the first two weeks in, I got his report in my email and realized it works. I had to call him out again, and told him this was his Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card. If it happened again, the Internet would be gone for good. Every time I get a “clean” report, it helps to build trust.
We always tell people that addiction is addiction, everyone just has their drug of choice. Porn happened to be T’s hardest habit to break. Now, had he secretly been addicted to cocaine, yes, I’m sure I’d have been devastated, but secret sexual sin personally affects the spouse in such a deep way. I know his addiction wasn’t my fault. It took a long time to learn that.
If you’re reading this and think your spouse’s addiction is your fault, please understand it is not. There is nothing you could have done or said differently to prevent the addiction. Trust me, I tried. I tried for a year and a half. Through marriage we become one, especially in our most intimate times. So in my mind, he was turning away from me, unfulfilled, which left me so offended and so disgusted. Once I truly grasped that his addiction wasn’t my fault, I was really able to take “me” out of the equation and we were able to focus on him and his recovery.
Through this entire process I learned a lot about my own faith and our marriage. January 19 will be our 9 year wedding anniversary. When we got married I gave my heart to my husband. He wasn’t very gentle with it, and so I took it back. Since that time, T and I have both truly given our hearts to Jesus. Truly. As long as Jesus is holding my heart, no one can break it. So really, part of rebuilding trust was trusting Jesus with our hearts.
I think I would be lying if I said I trusted my husband 100%. We as humans are imperfect beings; unfortunately, we let each other down. T and I have chosen to grow together and change together. We said, “Till death do we part,” and meant it. I do, however, trust Jesus with my heart, and as long as T and I are fully focused on Him we will always be pointing in the same direction, together. We have taken this addiction and turned it into our ministry. We are daily fighting the battle and daily choosing integrity. If we were in a solitary place, he and I would both be in a recovery group. There is so much healing in knowing you are not alone in your struggle. We are reminded of this daily through emails, texts and talking to people after our shows. It is so amazing to have a couple come up and say, “Thank you, that is our story and it needs to be heard.”
If you are struggling with a hidden addiction, please be honest about it. Get it off your chest by telling someone. Choose integrity daily. Who we are the good, the bad, and the ugly make up our ministry here on earth. Focus on what you are passionate about and use it for Gods purpose. Be the change you want to see, and most of all . . . just love.
. . . .
This is a guest post by Veronica Benton. In 2002, Veronica’s husband Tyler (TD) confessed his ongoing struggle with pornography. Since 2006, T and Veronica have been touring the country with their band, White Collar Sideshow, a group dedicated to helping people break free pornography addiction.
Really should not read this after midnight. Let alone one in the morning….
@ Pulled – Pretty sure I can answer all those questions with a yes. The ones about “can you….”
Oh and you said: “I say that you all should be concerned and a little angry at your leadership for this. I say you are getting eternally ripped off while they use your money for the Big Top.”
Dude, I go to a church with 60 people tops. There is no “big top”. And the youth I help with? Pretty sure that building is held together with duck-tape.
Now for the fun stuff, translations:
1 Timothy 2:11-14 is a fun one that I struggled with for a while. Now if I remember my Greek correctly, it roughly translates to ” but I do not suffer a woman to teach or have authority over man”
The use of the pronoun “I” indicates that Paul does not desire to have that in his ministry within the church. And quite frankly, I’m not a huge fan of women being pastors. It conflicts with other parts of scripture in the New and Old Testaments, and says that women are not to be elders within the congregation.
1 Corinthians 14:34 says that women should be silent within the church, and ask questions within the home. No problem there. But what do you do if the woman does not have a husband, and her father does not have any relationship with the Lord? Not that its relevant, but I’m just a little curious. However, its much of the same, a woman is to trust her husband. And I believe that even the prophetesses of old (and recent, if you will) are permitted to speak within the church, but not with the authority of a man (elder in this case).
I’m a little puzzled about what this has to do with Veronica. She does not teach (as described in scripture, to the best of my knowledge), at least not in the 3 or 4 times that I’ve been to a show. She gives her testimony, and how she has come to know the Lord and the struggles. And she is under T[D]’s authority, and has that as a base of the relationship. Ever read Proverbs 31:10-31? That’s the kind of relationship I know them to have. Check out line 26.
“She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue. ”
Oh and: “Is it not also interesting that Veronicas’ message is false given that Paul points out that the woman was deceived? I think so.”
Seriously? That’s a bit of a stretch, even for you.
and Morgan – Be blessed!
Hey people,
I have been following this blog for a long time, and every time I check up on it again, I smile, because fifty million more things have been posted…
@ Pulled From The Fire… is it even about God and faith and and what is Christlike and whatever else anymore, or is it just about being right? Are you seriously insinuating that a person that struggles with porn “does not love God”? Because that’s what you said – verbatim. Does that mean that you didn’t love God “back in October” when you sought help for your internet pornography addiction? I mean, if the love of God leads you to repentance, but you’re stuck in a pornography addiction that causes you to lack all love for God or his church, then where did that conviction come from? Why did you seek help? I mean, you yourself called your pornography problem an addiction, and then said that “addiction” – the very word itself – is a “wicked, marginalized” word, void of any love for God… isn’t that self contradictory? What about all of the pastors and all of the men and women that are living out their lives to the glory of God, but they’re struggling with porn, and they’re struggling with lust – does that mean that their ministries are null and void? What if your pastor is addicted to pornography? He might be. A lot of pastors are. You know what?! I’ll bet the people that started these awesome accountability software sites for people like you and I struggled with pornography. I wonder if that means that their ministries aren’t doing anything for anyone? I wonder if Covenant Eyes is causing people to stumble. I mean, I hear it’s really helping relationships and mending marriages and providing practical help to overcome addictions, but it’s probably not true, because the dudes that started these sites might be addicted to the pornography that they’re trying to steer clear from. Does that mean that they are not vessels that God can do anything he wants with? And if it does, what makes pornography such a special sin? If all sin is equal in the eyes of God, then could it be possible that if there is just the smallest hint of judgement in your tone, you are subject to the same folly that you speak of? Because the last I heard, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Well, I guess that means we’re all inexcusably wicked and all of our ministries are – what was your wording? – “not valid” – just like White Collar Sideshow’s. It might be a bit rash to single out a specific failing, because if the whitest lie is equivalent to the most violent of rape and murder (as far as separation from God goes) then nothing is valid, nothing is Christlike, and nothing holds meaning, let alone hope.
What lovely trees we all must have in our eyes.
You’ve used the word “foolish” several times in your descriptions of T or Veronica or Phillip or White Collar Sideshow… well I glory in the fact that my God “has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;” – 1 Corinthians 1:27
Look, I’ll readily agree with the fact that the way we view creation is reflective of the way we feel about the Creator, but to say that if someone struggles with porn, they do not love God… well, @Pulled From Fire, I just don’t know how that’s possible, and I don’t know how that’s Biblical. Is there a verse that you can give me that supports that? Is there a single place where Jesus says that all is hopeless for the adulterer? For the man or woman who struggles with lust?
You know what’s crazy to me? Thinking about David. God loved David. God called David a man after his own heart. David was a crazy guy. See, he was really digging on this girl, killed her husband, and took her as his own. Solomon did some pretty crazy stuff, too. He had a lot of wives and a lot of money and a lot of concubines and everything you could ever want and he didn’t deny himself a worldly pleasure. It’s pretty crazy that those kind of people – those kind of sinners – are the sinners that have books in the Bible. They’re the people that Jesus came to earth to chill with. White Collar is a pretty dramatic band. You know who else was pretty dramatic? Jesus. Jesus did a whole lot of things that people didn’t like at all. Jesus hung out with all of us sinners, and he called sinners to live for him, and sinners to die for him, and sinners to bring other sinners to him, and sinners to do crazy, oftentimes unconventional things for him, just like he did crazy, oftentimes unconventional things for sinners. Of course, we’re made perfect in Christ, but, I mean… you still sin, right? You’ve sinned in the past, right? I’ll bet that God uses you. I’ll bet that you struggle with things, and I’ll bet that Jesus loves you and is using you in his kingdom. I praise God for that. Just because we disagree on things does not mean that God does not hold power to do marvelous things through each of our lifestyles and viewpoints.
It is hardly justifiable to attack WCS on their methods simply because yours are different than theirs, and as T says at almost every show, and as the Bible clearly states: we all make up the body of Christ. And the Bible is firm about how we are not to cause division in it, but unity. Some of us might be the dirt underneath the body’s toenails, but we serve a purpose, and I am willing to be that WCS is fine with being the dirt underneath the body’s toenails if that is where God has them, and they are content in knowing that God is in control. Not every man’s ministry is going to appeal to everyone, but that is hardly a reason for the persons who disagree to criticize a beautiful ministry that the Lord is building in his name. Find me a place in the Bible where God says he’s as angry with a man in a pig mask as you say he is, and perhaps I’ll change my mind. But as of now, God’s ways are not man’s ways, and God’s design is infinite and flawless, and I do not believe that you have a right to speak with such authoritative condemnation upon a group of people that have devoted their entire lives to sharing the Gospel in a unique, passionate, bold manner, with the zeal and fervor that Jesus lived out as a gracious example for what our lives should look like.
But hey: “Students are to be like their teacher, and slaves are to be like their master. And since I, the master of the household, have been called the prince of demons, the members of my household will be called by even worse names!” – Matthew 10:24
I suppose stuff like this is to be expected if you’re going to take up your cross daily and follow the Lord with all that you are. I mean, good Lord, if we crucified God for bringing us grace and hope in an unconventional way, it only makes sense that we’ll “have enemies in our own household (Matt 10:36)” if we follow in his footsteps, right?
The harvest is great, but the workers are few. I have not met many people that are more devoted, loving, accepting, caring, appreciative, trusting, harder workers than the members of this project. I know firsthand that they are flawed and unworthy just like the rest of us, and I know firsthand that the Lord has used these flawed, unworthy people as a vessel to dramatically pour out his loving, caring, just and forgiving spirit on the people that they have come into contact with. What a beautiful thing! That there is hope in Jesus for sinners like us! Praise God for that.
@ Pulled From The Fire, thank you for thought provoking conversation.
@ Luke, thank you for supporting WCS, for Covenant Eyes and the freedom and accountability it has provided countless struggling individuals and couples, and for allowing Veronica to post this blog, and for your words of wisdom.
@ White Collar Sideshow, thank you so much for everything that you do. Please never, ever, ever stop.
I notice that many seem to think that this is an attack on V & T. To them I would offer the following quote from Mathew Henry:
“Note, It is a common thing for unhumbled sinners to call and count reproofs reproaches. It is the wisdom of those who desire to have their sin mortified to make a good use of reproaches that come from ill will, and to turn them into reproofs. If we can in this way hear of our faults, and amend them, it is well: but it is the folly of those who are wedded to their sins, and resolved not to part with them, to make an ill use of the faithful and friendly admonitions given them, which come from love, and to have their passions provoked by them as if they were intended for reproaches, and therefore fly in the face of their reprovers, and justify themselves in rejecting the reproof. Thus the prophet complained (Jer. 6. 10): The word of the Lord is to them a reproach; they have no delight in it.”
Have I been 100% faithful and friendly? No, but please take heed, for your own happiness sake, and for the glory of God’s sake.
Luke said:
“I don’t personally know of anyone who has stumbled over Driscoll’s words (in the sense of being tempted to sin) because they hear him speak (or joke) about specific subjects. Because I do not know anyone like this, I am not inclined to think he is being reckless with his words, but then that is probably based on my lack of interaction with such people.”
Does everything just boil down to relationships and experience for this generation? Sure seems like it. I will let this go, but I find the lack of imagination here stunning.
“I know many people who are offended by Driscoll’s style of preaching and teaching, but usually they are legalists looking for stones to throw.”
What is a legalist, Luke?
“I think you would agree your overall views about “entertainment” are the beginning of your specific problems with WCS. Because Christian entertainment is an oxymoron to you, WCS cannot be good from the outset (aside from the specific problems you have with their response to tattoos of their image, the way Veronica dresses, the fact that she is a woman who teaches, and the style of music that you believe is inherently linked to drug culture).”
Thanks for trying to understand me, and for keeping track. Luke, you are a brick. (if but a misguided one)
I would say my biggest problem is with modern undiscerning leadership. This culture is a tricky thing to play with. It is insidious. I don’t pretend to understand it, but I witness to being delivered from it to some extent by the grace of God.
“On matter of Veronica being a woman: God’s word forbids women to teach “with authority,””
You misquote scripture, Luke. Please give it another read:
1 Timothy 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Paul says “NOR” to have authority, not “WITH”, as you say. And he links the issue to the creation order of God, and with the fall in the garden, so good luck trying to get around his argument. Looks like a dangerous move to me.
Is it not also interesting that Veronicas’ message is false given that Paul points out that the woman was deceived? I think so. I think the word “silence” is clear here as well.
“Concerning WCS’s message: Asking an addict to “choose integrity” or “choose life” (in the language of the Law) either drives a person toward legalism, drives a person to the despair of failure, or leaves them craving the gospel of grace…”
Your imagination seems to work just fine here. You think that “choose integrity” sounds like the thunders of Mount Sinai to most people? I think it sounds misleading; like it is something that I can do if I want to.
To be frank, I think it sounds like a pitiful, deceptive, man-centered, will-worshiping, graceless message to be repented of.
talitha_koum made a reference to fruit. That got me thinking: I maintain that you all are getting ripped off by modern leadership; and I offer this wake up call:
Can you give a coherent and true recollection of the gospel message so that it would match the ones preached in the book of ACTS?
Can you show that you understand how a person is saved (the doctrine of Justification)?
Can you tell anyone the difference between justification and sanctification?
Can you quote any Bible verses to back up your doctrine?
Can you do the above without the web or books, right now?
You will know them by their fruits. Mathew 7:13 to the end of the chapter includes doctrine on false teachers and their fruits. The fruit of a ministry is its converts. And it is likely that most of you all (V&T included) don’t know the gospel or how a person is saved.
bummer eh? Or maybe no big deal?
What do you all think?
I say that you all should be concerned and a little angry at your leadership for this. I say you are getting eternally ripped off while they use your money for the Big Top.
@Pulled –
You said, “Does everything just boil down to relationships and experience for this generation?”
Not sure why me saying what I said Driscoll’s preaching invoked that comment. Perhaps you can elaborate.
I agree with what you said about undiscerning leadership. Not sure what it has to do with your thoughts on entertainment, unless you’re talking about entertainers as leaders. Is that what you are getting at? How was my take on the entertainment concept?
On the matter of 1 Timothy 2, I was not quoting it, but rather trying to draw out the applications and implications. I believe 1 Timothy 2 means women cannot be in the leading-teaching role Paul speaks of in 1 Timothy (specifically seen in chapters 3 and 5). Paul is commanding women to learn in a spirit of submissiveness and not take an up the authority or teaching position of an elder. It is clear from many other passages in the Bible, including Paul’s letters, that an absolute silence of women is not being promoted here. I firmly believe women are not to be pastors/elders. Veronica is not, nor does she try to act like one.
Concerning WCS’s message, you heard me right: the language of choosing integrity is like the language of the law, the tutor that prepares us for Christ. Add to that their testimony of how the grace of Christ saves us, and it points people to Jesus as their only hope for transformation and forgiveness. Again, not sure why this is a problem.
@ cathy
are you thinking about neil postman? :)
* * * * * * * *
how beautiful it is that we have a Father who loves us fiercely and is jealous for us. a God who sent His son as a human baby, born in a barn to a virgin girl to die on a cross.
the same God uses broken people. clay vessels. He’s the master potter.
He used prostitutes, adulterers, liars, thieves, cheats.
Thank goodness perfection is not a prerequisite for our being used by Him and that His grace doesn’t run out when we make mistakes.
He knows we are human yet loves us -Psalm 103:13-14- and loves us enough to not let us stay where we are.
We are all on the journey to holiness.
Thanks, everyone, for your honesty and vulnerability.
Thanks, T and Veronica, for everything.
They will know we are disciples by our fruit. (John 15:5)
I am a friend of Roni and Tyler and I can tell you that you would be hard pressed to find 10 people in your lifetime who are equally devoted to Christ as they are. They are true lovers of Christ and live a life that shines His Glory.
Reading the opinions of some on here only confirms that. Jesus was the Messiah without sin and people were right on that band wagon to kill him weren’t they? “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me” (Jesus said that).
Also, found this write up about people who are easily offended (DL Moody)
NOT EASILY OFFENDED
In the 119th Psalm and the 165th verse, we find “Great peace have they who love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.” The study of God’s Word will secure peace. You take Christians who are rooted and grounded in the Word of God, and you find they have great peace; but it is these who don’t study their Bible, and don’t know their Bible, who are easily offended when some little trouble comes, or some little persecution, and their peace is all disturbed; just a little breath of opposition, and their peace is all gone.
Sometimes I am amazed to see how little it takes to drive all peace and comfort from some people. some slandering tongue will readily blast it. But if we have the peace of God, the world can not take that from us. It can not give it; it can not destroy it. We have to get it from above the world; it is peace which Christ gives. “Great peace have they which love Thy law, and nothing shall offend them.” Christ says “blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in Me.” Now, if you will notice, wherever there is a Bible taught Christian, one who has the Bible well marked, and daily feeds upon the Word by prayerful meditation, he will not be easily offended.
Such are the people who are growing and working all the while. But it is these people who never open their Bibles, these people who never study the Scriptures, who become offended, and are wondering why they are having such a hard time. They are the persons who tell you that Christianity is not what it has been recommended to them; that they have found it was not all that we claim it to be. The real trouble is, they have not done as the Lord has told them to do. They have neglected the Word of God. If they had been studying the Word of God, they would not be in that condition. If they had been studying the Word of God, they would not have wandered these years away from God, living on the husks of the world. But the trouble is, they have neglected to care for the new life; they haven’t fed it, and the poor soul, being starved, sinks into weakness and decay, and is easily stumbled or offended.
I met a man who confessed his soul had fed on nothing for forty years. “Well,” said I, “that is pretty hard for the soul – giving it nothing to feed on!” And that man is but a type of thousands and tens of thousands today; their poor souls are starving. This body that we inhabit for a day, and then leave, we take good care of; we feed it three times a day, and we clothe it, and take care of it, and deck it, and by and by it is going into the grave to be eaten up by the worms; but the inner man, that is live on and one, and on forever, is lean and starved. http://www.worthydevotions.com/dl-moody/not-easily-offended.php
SIde note:
I apologize I don’t remember the name of the fellow that is against TV, but I couldn’t help noticing that you don’t have a problem with the internet. : ) …but that’s none of my business.
Luke, thanks for looking into this. I know this is hard.
But, you misunderstand me. What I see as a lack of sympathy (sympathy being related to imagination) is this:
How is it that you cannot imagine some person who looks up to Driscoll not being stumbled into looking at TV by his remarks in their context? How is it that you do you not see him as reckless?
That’s all. My anger is at modern leadership that has lost its ability to discern between art and entertainment; and now a step further, entertainment and ministry.
I am deeply offended by Driscoll. I am horrified by this man’s insensitivity, but I am not stumbled by him. Why? I know what he is. Same as CCM. Early this year I came to see the truth after years of struggle; musicians are largely entertainers. This should not have been a big surprise, but because they had been sold to me as “ministers” by the modern church, it was a surprise.
I saw a web site that quoted many CCM artists praising secular bands, then I noticed many of my CCM bands doing secular songs. Like the 77’s doing the Led Zeppelin song Nobody’s Fault but Mine on their album Pray Naked. Facts about Led Zeppelin’s Jimmy Page: he was a full blown Satanist. He bought Alistair Crowley’s mansion. These people are my enemies, I do not admire them, nor will I ever allow my ministers to do so. My large collection of CCM is now gone, along with many secular CD’s I had collected simultaneously.
Life is sweeter with my Lord now that I am not trying to defend the indefensible. And the spirit of play is leaving me. Play. It is OK to play. That is the message I get from modern, reformed, popular leadership.
When I went looking for help with internet porn in early October I came to this site, and I saw an earlier article for WCS. As I thought about it I saw that WCS was a special case. Over two weeks I got angry thinking about Covent Eyes and WCS. And when I came back to the site there was a new article. So here we are (and thank for posting me).
Follow me for a moment: What is a WCS concert? It is clearly some kind of celebration or entertainment. How can a ministry dealing with such a vile sin as porn be remotely involved with celebration and entertainment? Is this not insanity? Have we not been here before?
Jeremiah 11:15 What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.
Sin is a reason to morn, not rejoice. More so the covenant breaking sin of porn.
Another question for you: Why is Veronica teaching when God’s word forbids a woman to teach (1Tim 2.9-15)? Look at her teaching, it is full of error. She says we need to “choose integrity” everyday.
Hogwash. Before my conversion I spent time on the street with a man who I saw pick up a used syringe from the gutter. The needle was broken off so he dug out the broken stub out of the plastic case and pulled it out a bit. He then tried to shoot up some meth and made a bloody mess of himself in the process.
When you tell a real sinner to chose integrity, Jesus, or even two cents worth of bleach to sanitize his needle, you show that you know nothing of human nature or the gospel.
A sinner wants his sin no matter the cost. He will have his bowl of mush at the cost of God, bliss, glory, family, friends, and physical safety. What put me on the path to reformed doctrine was tiring to tell an addict on the street to “chose” Jesus: what a fool I looked like! What a fool modern leadership made of me! Veronica you need to repent of this pitiful message of choosing integrity.
Why do we look at porn? Simple, we don’t love God.
We don’t love God, and don’t love the Church, and we don’t love anybody enough not to do it. And to marginalize it to an “addiction” is wicked; just another way to excuse it and keep dong it.
It is the love of God that leads us to repentance; and if that love does not break our hearts, shatter our hearts, humble our hearts, and calm our hearts; we have never tasted it.
The time to morn has come, and the time to dress as demons and have a big time and say you are in a ministry against porn has ended.
Entertainment is not art.
Entertainment is not ministry.
Our culture has infected us, it has deluded us! Beware!
Some books that have helped me:
Amusing ourselves To Death, by Neil Postman
All God’s Children And Blue Suede Shoes, by Kenneth A. Myers
Losing Our Virtue, and
God In The Wasteland by David F. Wells
The Total Depravity of Man, by AW Pink, (free from Chapel Library)
These sins I stand against are MY sins. I have lead people astray with a casual attitude, and I have promoted CCM as ministry. Please don’t get me wrong here.
Thank you for clarifying. At first I thought you were saying you are tempted to stumble into sin by listening to Driscoll’s comments. Rather, you are saying you offended at his recklessness. This makes much more sense to me. Thank you for clearing that up.
I don’t personally know of anyone who has stumbled over Driscoll’s words (in the sense of being tempted to sin) because they hear him speak (or joke) about specific subjects. Because I do not know anyone like this, I am not inclined to think he is being reckless with his words, but then that is probably based on my lack of interaction with such people. I know many people who are offended by Driscoll’s style of preaching and teaching, but usually they are legalists looking for stones to throw. I will certainly look more carefully into Driscoll’s ministry for the future.
I think you would agree your overall views about “entertainment” are the beginning of your specific problems with WCS. Because Christian entertainment is an oxymoron to you, WCS cannot be good from the outset (aside from the specific problems you have with their response to tattoos of their image, the way Veronica dresses, the fact that she is a woman who teaches, and the style of music that you believe is inherently linked to drug culture).
WCS is a multimedia presentation with a live-music backdrop. It is certainly “entertaining.” But does it celebrate the sin of pornography. No. Far from it. It exposes it for the dark, dangerous, addictive sin it is. It is a form of drama used to illustrate a truth. I see good storytelling and drama having the same potentially redemptive function as me captivating my 5-year-old son’s imagination with a dramatic Bible story, or someone using a parable to grab someone’s attention and cause them to think, or a preacher using a good illustration.
Now, don’t get me wrong. Secularism and bad theology permeate much of Christian music today. Entertainment is often not redeeming. But I do not assume, given that observation, that all Christian musicians who utilize a modern sound are therefore engaging in unprofitable entertainment.
Perhaps the word “entertainment” is part of the problem. I can be “entertained” by a lot of things, even godly things, in the sense that I am amused or engaged by them. Good hymns can be engaging. I’m sure the new heavens and earth will be thoroughly entertaining. But if by entertainment we mean something that is an unhelpful diversion from truth, then yes, we should all look into how Christian music might be that for us. And musicians should ask themselves with what spirit they perform. I agree Christians should definitely be more discerning about all aspects of their life, including what entertains them. Far too few Christians even ask whether certain kinds of entertainment are deadening their souls. But I do not think something that is “entertaining” is inherently bad.
On matter of Veronica being a woman: God’s word forbids women to teach “with authority,” which I take to mean usurping wrongful authority that male church leaders have to shepherd their flock with truth. I see nothing wrong with a woman publicly speaking to the church in the right context (1 Corinthians 11:5; 14:26).
Concerning WCS’s message: Asking an addict to “choose integrity” or “choose life” (in the language of the Law) either drives a person toward legalism, drives a person to the despair of failure, or leaves them craving the gospel of grace which alone trains us to be godly. If that were WCS’s only message, they would certainly be wanting. But that is not where their message stops. They point people to Christ in their testimonies. Much of the time WCS stays to pray with many of the people who attend their shows.
Luke said:
“I pointed to his sermon because it clearly articulated how we need to contend for truth while being culturally contextual.”
“You’ll have to excuse me but never in my 30 short years have I met someone who would hear a joke about cable TV, or a remark about the Simpsons, or who would listen to any modern type of music, and stumble into sin as a result. Never.”
NEVER? NEVER!
Let me get this straight.
You ask me to listen to a PASTOR of a mega Church preach on being culturally contextual. Part of his message is that we need to be in contact with the culture. He says that Christ has been on the Simpsons many times. He then chides God’s people about getting cable if they don’t have it (in a joking way), so that they can watch the Simsons.
Will you now contend that no one could easily be stumbled by this very popular preacher to get a TV who should not have one?
Luke, your lack of sympathy is stunning.
@Pulled – I am sad to hear you think this relates to a lack of sympathy. I would call it ignorance. Perhaps they are the same thing. Either way, I really have never run into anyone even remotely like you in your sensitivities. It has honestly never crossed my mind that posting a sermon with that joke would cause anyone to doubt their convictions about TV. Please, forgive my ignorance.
You and I have reached many impasses in this conversation. Praying this morning over this blog post I recognized that the Lord has had much for me to learn in our conversation. Clearly, you have so many sensitivities I never knew existed. Much of this whole blog is probably an affront to you. I’m officially stumped. I am at a loss of how to effectively apply any teaching about the “weaker brother” when our differences are so dramatically pronounced.
I’ve taken these comments to my superiors who will help me know how to weigh these matters properly. Thank you for all your comments.
I found this sermon by John MacArthur very interesting in regards to music in our culture and how it relates to worship.
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-377
Luke –
I do understand the concept of the weaker brother very well. We are treading on the issue of personal conviction now.
I’ve been convicted to give up TV, video games, music that does not glorify God, and am a vegetarian. I have fasted and prayed about all those decisions (and more), and believe that Christ has been leading me. Still I hang out with my brothers and sisters in the faith, that do not hold the same convictions. It is simply because that Christ is working somewhere else in their life. Just the same, I talk to people that are further along than me, and I do get the sense of not being where I need to be.
“I’m no longer blind, but I cant yet see. I’m not the boy that I once was, but I’m not the man I’m yet to be”.
I come from ministering to youth (teens) and am active in the local music scene. Many of the bands I listen to have a punk / rock / metal sound to them. The individuals in the band are there because of Christ. They are using their talents that He has given them to reach others. The Lord can use anyone. If you imply that He cannot, you’re ‘putting God in a box’ – as they say.
“I was talking to a homeless man at the laundry mat recently, and he said that when we reduce Christian spirituality to systems and math we defile the Holy. I thought this was very beautiful and comforting because I have never been good at math. Many of out attempts to understand Christian faith have only cheapened it. I can no more understand the totality of God than the pancake I made for breakfast understands the complexity of me. The little we do understand, that grain of sand our minds are capable of grasping, those ideas such as God is good, God feels, God loves, God knows all, are enough to keep our hearts dwelling on his majesty and otherness forever”
To say that one variant of music is not biblical is interesting. A (very) jewish friend of mine says that the only mitzvah dealing with music is in regards to festivals. God loves creativity, look around in nature, its evident. Making music that glorifies His name, using the talents that HE has given to create. Rhythm does not matter. If its your conviction not to listen to it, then that’s where you are with Christ. That’s something that you need to work on. We are all individuals, and Christ will work differently in everyone.
Temptation (sin) is there, it always will be. But its how we handle it that is key. You are not to put a stumbling block in your brother’s path and you are to build him up as he grows in The Lord. But that brother must also forge his own path, and grow with Christ at his own rate. He cannot be a hinderance to others growing.
“I know now, from experience, that the path to joy winds through this dark valley. I think that every well adjusted human being has dealt squarely with his or her own depravity. ”
We cannot judge our brothers based on where we stand with Christ. Whether we are the weaker or stronger.
I was vague on Driscoll; I count him as a wolf for lots of reasons besides this sermon, and have for some time. Many notable and honorable pastors publicly deplore him for his harsh ways. His inclusion at this 2006 DGM Conference was controversial, and was the begging of many pulling back from Piper.
I marvel at Driscoll’s (and your?) insensitivity for the weaker brother (if that is what you would like to call me, go right ahead (Ro 14)).
Cable TV is dangerous. Regular TV is dangerous.
Even if were true that some people can handle TV without sin, it is clear that many cannot. My battle with the TV was a fierce and bloody one over the course of 20 plus years. I REALLY don’t find this something to be joked about, and I am deeply offended.
Leadership is supposed to be serious, sensitive, and worthy of respect.
1 Timothy 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave….
Driscoll was in this sermon grossly irresponsible and insensitive to the weaker brother in making this joke: that God’s people need to repent and get cable TV if they don’t have it. Why do you back him up here? Where is your sensitivity? I find you troubling here.
What is with modern leadership? Where in the Bible is it taught that everything is open game for a joke? Is this not marginalizing and mocking? Is it not a sign of a hard heart? Is everything just a mere joke, an intellectual exercise?
To me it looks as though modern leadership just wants to have a big time in the name of Jesus Christ and does not care who gets trampled.
Have you experienced being delivered from the gutter only to get stumbled back into it?
I will tell you what it feels like: it feels like a sucker punch in the face from a trusted father figure. I don’t find it funny, and I don’t think the Lord does either; He has special care for the weak ones of the flock, and special hatred for those who stumble them.
Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor ANY THING whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
@Pulled,
Concerning 1 Timothy 3:8, yes deacons are called to be “grave” (KJV), or otherwise translated, dignified (ESV), men of dignity (NASB), men worthy of respect (NIV, HCSB), or reverent (NKJV). Mark Driscoll isn’t a deacon, but I get your point. I suppose it would be fairly easy to dig up dirt on him that would lead someone to believe he is not a person of venerable character. Like I said, I wouldn’t want to defend or denounce Driscoll as a minister or a person in simple blog comments, so I won’t even try.
I pointed to his sermon because it clearly articulated how we need to contend for truth while being culturally contextual. As for his comments about cable TV, I have very little to say. I don’t personally have cable TV and find TV-watching to be a big time-waster. I took his comment to be sarcastic, or at least tongue-in-cheek. Of course, I have no desire to “back him up” on a joke.
Yes, I have experienced being delivered from the gutter only to get stumbled back into it. Porn addiction was one of my biggest downfalls, but there have been plenty of other habitual sins in my life I am not proud of.
You’ll have to excuse me but never in my 30 short years have I met someone who would hear a joke about cable TV, or a remark about the Simpsons, or who would listen to any modern type of music, and stumble into sin as a result. Never. I obviously have a lot to learn about the so called “weaker brothers” out there in the universe. I heartily desire to pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding (Romans 14:19), and we all have a lot to learn about what that means in our global church context, especially since the Internet has made so much of our lives public.
On the matter of the “weaker brother,” would you consider yourself that? Is that how you would identify yourself when it comes to these issues?