I read through your comments and I find a great amount of agreement in many areas, especially your beliefs about the true gospel and the need for churched men and women to really understand and embrace it. I also agree with much of your sentiments about the way church undiscerningly embraces elements of pop culture and thus elevates form over substance. We see this especially in the area of popular music.

The key difference for me is I do not believe that merely because this has been a trend that we should swing the pendulum to the opposite extreme and believe that therefore every expression in pop culture or modern music should be rejected or denounced by the church as if every instance is an example of form over substance. I take Acts 17 as an example of this: Paul could in one hand be poised like a classic Greek orator, could quote from the Greek poets of his day and use them to contextualize the gospel (even quoting from idolatrous literature that praised Zeus), while on the other hand issuing a strong message that denounced idolatry, Stoicism, and Epicurianism, a message that flew in the face of their deeply rooted dualistic thinking, a hard message about repentance and the final judgment. This was a form they could recognize and understand, but with a Christ-centered, gospel-filled substance. This, I believe, is a classic example of Paul becoming all things to all men that he might win some (1 Cor 9:22).

Yes, WCS should always been examining their methods and forms. They should be continually striving for a more precise understanding of the gospel and continually exploring how best to explain it to others. But as far as I can tell, their use of modern music and style is not an example of form over substance. Audiences are continually captivated by the substance of their message, the way they expose pornography for the bottomless pit it is, and their strong call to repentance.

I do find your comments about savagery and “traditional culture” very interesting. If by savagery you mean “loosing all sense of propriety” (as you said), I would agree this is a bad direction for the church to go to reach the lost. But if by savagery you also include tattoos or experimental drum and bass music, I see nothing evil or wrong about that sort of so-called “savagery.” Yes, these forms may fly in the face of classical European notions of refinement and civility, but I see no biblical reason to cling to those notions as they have been traditionally expressed in the West.

I wish you the best, Pulled from the Fire. Thank you for stirring such a thought provoking discussion here.

What is your prayer for me dark_light, that I would loose my convictions? Is this your idea of childlikeness?

My whole point has been that you are getting ripped off. If you are a Christian, and you grow, this is what will happen to you naturally; you will let go of mixed up junk like WCS and CCM all together. Why? Because these inferior things will be replaced with greater joys; like knowing and believing the gospel.

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Jake wrote: “come on guys, it seems to me like all you guys are here for is to argue your point so that you can come out on top. For me reading this it just looks like one selfish post after another”

Jake, you are like some others on this thread who what to shut me down with an argumentum ad hominim (an argument against the person, not the issue).
This just goes to show that my previous post were right on target: You manifestly have no convictions about the gospel!

Why is this? Simple, to begin with you manifestly don’t know what the gospel is!

One reason the gospel is not precious to you and why you have no convictions about is that it is not the center of your life. This is a very serious state to be in my friend, beware! You have been led astray.

People of the world think they are superior because they have no convictions. They therefore tend to put energy into relationships and activism, not truth. When you love truth, your friends will be few. Many in our day who say they are Christians are just deluded social activists.

You will LOVE the gospel if God ever grants you eyes to see it. May it be soon, according to His Grace, Amen.

The Church promoting CCM (and thus WCS) is akin to supporting people in their native blindness and ignorance. I can clearly see this manifested on this thread by the remarks of the young fans of WCS. Can you? Do you care?

Did you notice that this is the first post in two weeks? I threw down the challenge in previous posts with no takers! These children don’t know what the gospel is! Nor do they seem to care. Do you say that they are just like most Christians today? I agree they are, and this it is no comfort to me.

come on guys, it seems to me like all you guys are here for is to argue your point so that you can come out on top..
For me reading this it just looks like one selfish post after another

I’ve been praying about what to do with this conversation since Luke asked. And in the past few days, the Lord has told me to simply pray for you. And with that, this is my last response.

Matthew 18:3 – “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Is that all you think this is about, just “Belief systems clashing”? Is that all we have? One as good as another?

The gospel starts with the fact that God has not left us alone. He is a good God, and He has spoken in a way that we can understand.

And somtimes we have to duke it out:

2 Corinthians 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Have some hope in Truth, solid truth, the kind you need on a death bed.

Don’t be ripped off by the relativism of this pop culture.

1 Corinthians 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Corinthians 15:13-17
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Another key gospel point: Christ is risen from the dead indeed!

Have a listen to this sermon: The Worst Sin I Have Ever Committed; it has helped me in my fight with porn and address some of your concerns with my post. Over 2100 people have downloaded it: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=417081452501

Dead_light wrote: “You mistakenly generalize when you say that most seminary students do not know the Gospel. Again, what grounds are you basing this discernment on?”

Do I? Are these not just the plain facts? Most pastors in the western world do not know what the gospel is. How do I know this? Because most professing Christians do not know what the gospel is. You know a tree by the fruit it gives. Why do you think I am wrong? Has this been an issue that you have spoken to people about?

Maybe in your talks with Christians you could start to bring this topic up. You will be shocked if you do! Ask this question: “what is the foundation of your hope?” It will alarm you what they say. First, they won’t like to talk about it (which is strange if it is the center and hope of their life!), and will think you rude for asking. Bad sign! Try it! When professing Christians can’t give an answer for the hope within them you know something is wrong. And the answer they give will often be dead wrong: many will recount an experience, or a decision, or their works! Red Flag!

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the HOPE that is in you with meekness and fear:

Or try this question: “what did Christ accomplished on the cross?”. Again, they will hate this question for two reasons, 1. because the cross of Christ is manifestly NOT the center and treasure of their life! and 2. they don’t know the answer.

Most will go on to tell you that Jesus made a WAY for us to be saved by our efforts, works, or will-power of some kind.

(Try and help them if you can! Most will be offended! Oh God have mercy on this deluded generation!)

This is a good wake up call, I highly recommend it. I have been doing it for years now and it SHOCKING what a mess we are in. Christianity is not much better off now than many of the cults.

“Is it wrong of me to delight in studying scripture? I talk with people, read, and research for fun. Its been apart of my life for as long as I can remember. Ever experience the joy when you finally understand a piece of scripture that you’ve been wrestling with for weeks? That is what I enjoy about this. I love to learn.”

This sounds good dead_light, push on. You just came across a bit crass in that post, and I was responding. And yes I have had that joy.

“Dead_light is short for a word God gave me a long time ago. Dying to self in order to live as a light. Is that wrong of me?”

Thanks for explaining your name, dead_light, I had it wrong.

“I see the post at the top as an interview, her story. If you see that as teaching, maybe there is something for you to learn within.”

Nonsense, dead_light, if you believe what you just wrote there is something for you to learn about words and meaning. The word “teaching” is a word you can look up in the dictionary. Here is some of Veronica’s blog:

“Focus on what you are passionate about and use it for Gods purpose. Be the change you want to see, and most of all . . . just love.”

This is called teaching or instruction by DEFINITION.

Just an aside, what is it that you find so profound with Veronica’s teaching and testimony?

Cathy wrote: “How can you say that someone can’t ask Jesus to come into their life anywhere!”

First tell me this: Does the act of asking Jesus to come into my life make me a Christian?

When was the last time you saw a person at a show or party broken and calling out to God for salvation? Not likely, is it? That was my point; the two don’t go together.

“Cathy said: “knowing really? did you say knowing?”

Yes Cathy, I said knowing. How can you believe what you have never heard and don’t know?

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Cathy, can I ask you something? Do you think you are a good person?

You Said:
Reconciliation with God is not gotten at a party or a rock show. One has to step out of the popular into a strange place like the Church and LEARN some things from serious people; people who are not super-fun-time-Charles (like your typical so-called youth pastor is).

Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6).

How can you say that someone can’t ask Jesus to come into their life anywhere! Where in the bible does it say that you have to be in a church to become a believer in Christ? You’re thinking is severely flawed here. Once a person has become a believer-then they step into the church to learn to be come more like him-discipled. But my Jesus accepts us where we are.

Isaiah 55
Invitation to the Thirsty
1 “Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.

2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.

3 Give ear and come to me;
hear me, that your soul may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.

4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples,
a leader and commander of the peoples.

5 Surely you will summon nations you know not,
and nations that do not know you will hasten to you,
because of the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
for he has endowed you with splendor.”

6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.

7 Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.

9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

12 You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.

13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the LORD’s renown,
for an everlasting sign,
which will not be destroyed.

You Said:
I am upset knowing that most of the people involved with WCS and probably WCS themselves don’t know or understand the gospel. How can people believe what they don’t even know? How can WCS share a gospel they don’t understand? (cathy side bar…knowing really? did you say knowing?!)

But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. : )

Pulled, By the statement: “Your training is most likely of little value here. Most seminary trained people don’t know the gospel or the doctrine of Justification. “, are you implying I’m a seminary student? I hope that is a compliment, but I am not. I enjoy studying His word, and talking with knowledgeable people, elders. You mistakenly generalize when you say that most seminary students do not know the Gospel. Again, what grounds are you basing this discernment on?

“A while eh? How old are you? My dear boy, you are a perfect example of what I am talking about. You treat the sacred as though it were casual fun. And what is with your name “dead-light”? Is this not a wicked mix of words? Light is life, not death.”

Is it wrong of me to delight in studying scripture? I talk with people, read, and research for fun. Its been apart of my life for as long as I can remember. Ever experience the joy when you finally understand a piece of scripture that you’ve been wrestling with for weeks? That is what I enjoy about this. I love to learn.

Dead_light is short for a word God gave me a long time ago. Dying to self in order to live as a light. Is that wrong of me?

I see the post at the top as an interview, her story. If you see that as teaching, maybe there is something for you to learn within.

Luke said: “You said, “Does everything just boil down to relationships and experience for this generation?” Not sure why me saying what I said (about) Driscoll’s preaching invoked that comment. Perhaps you can elaborate.”

Because you said the reason you could not relate was because you had never MET someone stumbled by Driscoll. The issue of Christian liberty takes some sympathy and imagination to obey.

Romans 14:21-22b It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God…

One has to understand that when people see us do something it is like an endorsement. So when a charismatic person like Driscoll chides God’s people about needing to get cable if they don’t have it (in a joking way), while preaching a message about being culturally contextual, and the need to be in contact with the culture, I think the potential to stumble is certain. Here he clearly implies that HE HAS cable and LOOKS at secular shows, and is clearly endorsing such a practice from the pulpit. To me this is radical. To obey this command of God we are to avoid DOING something others think is wrong (like drinking wine) IN FRONT of them, but what is to be said for some one who endorses something as dangerous as TV from the pulpit? To me this is a clear case of recklessness. (I assume you know that ALL of TV is full of porn [the definition of Porn includes things intended to cause sexual arousal, not just naked or fornicating people, look it up]).

In regard to Liberty I see this progression:
It is one thing to indulge in pop culture in private; it is another to promote it as safe entertainment; and it is monstrous presumption to promote it as Christian ministry.

Luke asked “How was my take on the entertainment concept?”

I agree with you for the most part; I think my thoughts on trying to separate art and entertainment were too simplistic, as you pointed out.

We need to understand pop culture and traditional culture. I don’t have the time to go into in detail, but this post is a small taste. I beg you to read the book All God’s Children and Blue Suede Shoes by Kenneth Myers. He is a director for radio and TV shows, and has masterful insight into these issues, and how they relate to Christians. This book is not an attack on pop culture, but an attempt to understand pop culture.

In short, I see Pop culture as insidious scheme turning people into savages a step at a time.

The lowest common denominator is the aim of pop culture; it is formula over substance, sentiment over lasting attributes.

The response of the modern church is to cater to the savages. I read the book The Celtic Way Of Evangelism years ago, and that is what it was up to: evangelize the emerging savages. But this is silly.

Why are we the ones involved with producing the savages in the first place?

What we need to be about trying to elevate and refine, instead of loosing all sense of propriety to reach the lost.

I say ministry as entertainment discomfits people for the real world of Christianity. A relationship with Christ takes WORK. Prayer, study, and meditation are WORK.

A concert is easy; you pay your money, you see the show and you’re done. The buzz of excitement wears off and your wallet is a little thinner, but YOU are the same.

Pop culture is easy, popular, relativistic, sentimental, and the spectacular. High culture takes investment, effort, and work. It demands submission to standards, invokes reasonable emotions, and focuses on timeless, transcendent ideas. It can seem dull to those who are uninitiated.

One really can’t just understand the gospel in his guts or his mind overnight. It is not an easy teaching. It takes years. And Justification, the heart of the gospel, is a very alien concept to fallen mankind. So to stoop down with stuff like WCS is in itself teaching the wrong idea.

Reconciliation with God is not gotten at a party or a rock show. One has to step out of the popular into a strange place like the Church and LEARN some things from serious people; people who are not super-fun-time-Charles (like your typical so-called youth pastor is).

I am upset knowing that most of the people involved with WCS and probably WCS themselves don’t know or understand the gospel. How can people believe what they don’t even know? How can WCS share a gospel they don’t understand?

How did we get here? In pop culture popularity rules, so leadership stooped down, hoping to catch the people up later. Now the people will not put up with sound teaching, so they are stuck. What a mess!

Luke said: “I firmly believe women are not to be pastors/elders. Veronica is not, nor does she try to act like one.”

What are V&T if not leadership? They have the stage for the evening, often in a church building; are they not leadership? What are their scriptural qualifications? I don’t see how you can get around this problem. I find it odd that as I look on the web that this is the only site that has any of their teaching, and besides an interview that includes Tyler, it is all from Veronica. However, in terms of their being actual ministers of Christ, I see no doctrinal statements, no church affiliation, no blogs on porn, nothing on their social sites. Kind of a crypto-ministry I would say. I also have read blogers who like WCS who know nothing of the porn ministry angle. Objectively, from looking at the web, it looks like V&T are common music celebrities.

Luke wrote “Concerning WCS’s message, you heard me right: the language of choosing integrity is like the language of the law, the tutor prepares us for Christ. Add to that their testimony of how the grace of Christ saves us, and it points people to Jesus as their only hope for transformation and forgiveness. Again, not sure why this is a problem.”

This seems like another case of a low and high culture mix up; the message of Oprah and the message of Moses being put forth as equals. Relativism tends to flatten everything out, and I think this is a good example. I think you would have had a hard time selling this idea 60 years ago. Of course today things are mixed up; one can do his doctrinal thesis on an old TV program like The Honeymooners. I still wonder if you would not shudder at many of your peers or Profs scrutinizing your connection of the law and WCS’s message here.

Let’s think about ministry for a moment. Ministry is high culture; it is about eternal things, morals, and values. How is it that a person looking at a WCS concert would see anything of these objectively? How is this not a complete contradiction? And how does it not teach the wrong message for V and T to talk high culture after acting and looking like a bunch of crazy drugged out rockers? Is the message of WCS not clear? I think it is. “You can have the world and Jesus too”.

1 John 2:15-17 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

The contrast of high and low culture can be seen in this passage as well. The world, with its eye-candy and prideful displays, is passing away: this is low culture. The eternal will of God is high culture, which abides forever.

Dead_light: By Big Top I was referring to the qualitative as well as quantitative aspects of a carnival; shallow, easy, accessible. This is how most churches are today.

I know I am a buzz kill dead_light, but please don’t call me “dude”. Let us keep in mind Titus 2.

Dead_light, I am not comforted that you are “pretty sure” you know what the gospel is. Even if you do, how many of the people at a WCS show do you think might know? Your training is most likely of little value here. Most seminary trained people don’t know the gospel or the doctrine of Justification. Beware. You are alive to see an evangelical disaster of monstrous proportions. Better wake up to this soon. This is no day to sleep.

Dead-light wrote “Now for the fun stuff, translations: 1 Timothy 2:11-14 is a fun one that I struggled with for a while”

A while eh? How old are you? My dear boy, you are a perfect example of what I am talking about. You treat the sacred as though it were casual fun. And what is with your name “dead-light”? Is this not a wicked mix of words? Light is life, not death.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Dead_light wrote: “I’m a little puzzled about what this has to do with Veronica. She does not teach…”

Have you noticed the blog at the top of this thread? She looks like a teacher to me. What would you call her?

Brandii said: “what’s so freaking cool in all this: is no matter what we believe or where we come from, Jesus loves us all the same. when we go to be with Him all these questions or judgments we had with people, laws, religions ect… none of this will matter when we are with our Lord. A-freaking-MEN!”

Thank you brandii, for being another perfect example of a pop-church-culture casualty. Your answer is relativistic, trite, vulgar, and dangerous. These are the core attributes of pop culture.

Brandii said “…no matter what we believe…”

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

2 Corinthians 6:6-7 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

brandii spoke about Judgments about religions. Do you think any other religion is valid besides Christianity? If so, you are lost.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Brandii, Jesus does not love us all the same.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 Corinthians 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema (accursed).

James 1:27p Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this…to keep himself unspotted from the world.